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> Logan pe GPL

AR-18-MOS
post 21 Jan 2008, 18:41
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QUOTE(Fisicooo @ 21 Jan 2008, 19:35)
am fost la revizia de 40000 km cu dci la adras militari si am intrebat cat sunt reviziile la logan gpl numai pentru instalatia de gpl.Prima la 15000 km se schimba cele 2 filtre de gaz faza gazoasa si faza lichida si au spus ca primul filtru costa 180 lei iar al doilea 70 lei cu manopera cu tot face fix 3 milioane si asta numai partea de gpl.A doua revizie la 30000 km numai partea de gpl face in jur de 5 mil au zis ca sunt mai scumpe reviziile la gpl ca la diesel oare asa sa fie?
Va rog cei care se duc la prima revizie cu logan gpl sa spuna preturile pe partea de gaz ca sa elucidam misterul.
*


mellow.gif mellow.gif

This post has been edited by AR-18-MOS: 21 Jan 2008, 18:42


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minny
post 21 Jan 2008, 18:51
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Daca e asa e naspa. Topicul a reinviat o data cu scumpirea motorinei si se va inmormanta o data cu pretul reviziei GPL.


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Laurentziu83
post 21 Jan 2008, 20:33
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@Ironick: M-ai dezumflat. sad.gif
Schema am gasit-o pe un forum polonez, nici nu mai stiu cum. Si la cata poloneza stiu, daca am vazut ca scrie de instalatii gpl in poza, am luat-o de buna. O fi buna, o fi rea, nu stiu, tocmai de asta cautam un electronist sa mi-o faca si sa-si dea verdictul.
O calibrare corecta a instalatiei se face doar cu masina in mers, ori asta nu poti obtine intr-un service de montaj de la noi, unde au desktop-uri, nu laptopuri. In plus, montatorii de la noi habar nu au ce e aia calibrare corecta, nici eu nu stiu inca cum se face corect, daca as avea o interfata, as invata repede, intructiunile le am, se regasesc in manualul de mai sus.
ECU gpl de pe Logan de fabrica este Landi Renzo (pe Matiz si Nubira GPL de fabrica este BRC, pe Cielo este Lovato). Toate instalatiile GPL folosesc RS232 pentru comunicare, practic, cu o interfata GPL si cu mai multe adaptoare, te poti conecta la orice instalatie fabricata in Europa si are ECU (exceptand instalatiile simple, pentru carburator, ce se regleaza din surubelnita). Bineinteles, mai este nevoie de softul de conectare, pentru AC STAG-ul meu, l-am gasit, la fel se gaseste si pentru Landi Renzo (dar nu m-a interesat), pentru BRC se gaseste foarte greu.
Iata si cum arata interfata la exterior si mufele adaptoare.
Tot pe Viaken.pl, au la vanzare, impreuna cu mufele adaptoare, si adaptorul serial-usb. Daca il vand impreuna cu mufele adaptoare, ar trebui sa mearga, nu?

80 de zloti e echivalentul la 100 ron. Banii astia i-as fi dat demult, daca n-as fi avut nevoie de vreun DHL sa-mi aduca coletul din Polonia contra a 100 de euro. sad.gif Asa ca trebuie sa-mi fac singur interfata, AGROM n-a vrut cu nici un pret sa-mi vanda o interfata, mai degraba ar fi dat faliment decat sa faca asta.




Iar faza cu filtrele de 180 ron e o mare gogoasa. E prima oara cand aud de asa ceva. La instalatia mea se schimba doar un amarat de filtru de vreo 30 de lei.

This post has been edited by Laurentziu83: 21 Jan 2008, 20:43


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AR-18-MOS
post 21 Jan 2008, 20:45
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Bine ar fii sa fie cum zici Laurentiu ... ca altfel glare.gif ( ma refer la filtre )

This post has been edited by AR-18-MOS: 21 Jan 2008, 20:46


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Laurentziu83
post 21 Jan 2008, 21:06
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Hai sa o luam logic:
Instalatiile GPL, pe traseul de alimentare, sunt asemanatoare, de la Voltran-ul de 700 de lei ce se monteaza pe berlinele cu carburator, pana la BRC-urile de 900 de euro. Sunt instalatii si mai scumpe, dar nu cunosc, nu ma bag.
Pana la vaporizator e o teava de cupru (nu-mi amintesc sa fi vazut vreun filtru pe acolo), in vaporizator are loc schimbul de caldura cu antigelul de la motor, iar dupa, pleaca un furtun, pe care e montat un filtru (asemanator din exterior cu cele de benzina), furtun ce intra apoi in rampa de injectoare de gaz. Apoi injectoarele de gaz, de la care pleaca cate un furtun subtire spre fiecare galerie a fiecarui cilindru.
La dacie spre exemplu nu mi s-a montat nici un filtru.
Daca intr-adevar, costa 180 ron un filtru si inca 70 al doilea (ce mama ciorilor de filtre or fi astea???) atunci cred ca se poate renunta la ele, se poate monta un filtru cum am eu si gata. Duzele de gaz (si ele consumabile, se inlocuiesc odata la cateva zeci de mii de km) nu cred ca valoreaza atata, ba chiar s-ar putea sa fie foarte ieftine, am mai auzit de incidente cu duze montate aiurea si inlocuite fara discutii.


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faganezu
post 21 Jan 2008, 21:50
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Ba nu se acorda garantie extinsa la Logan Laureat GPL 2007. Au zis ca e inca un model nou si... deocamdata nu se poate.
Asa ca mai intai trebuie sa se convinga DACIA ca nu sunt probleme, isi face calculele si poate oferii in final garantie extinsa.

eu am logan gpl din fabrica cumparata in octombrie 2007. baiatul de la vanzari m a intrebat daca vreau garantie extinsa, deci exista. chiar a fost o promotie de garantie extinsa gratis pe care am ratat o din cauza bancii.


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Laurentziu83
post 21 Jan 2008, 22:19
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Instalatia de gpl e in general mai fiabila decat sistemul de alimentare clasic cu benzina, intrucat exista mai putine piese in miscare si nu prea se pot face manarii cu gazul la fel cum se fac cu benzina.
Si singurul lucru de care mi-ar fi frica sa se strice la instalatie, ar fi ecu-ul, restul sunt componente mecanice ce pot fi reparate/inlocuite ieftin. Instalatia mea a costat 1500 ron, restul fiind manopera. ECU il estimez la vreun 5-600 ron.

This post has been edited by Laurentziu83: 21 Jan 2008, 22:21


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PaulT
post 21 Jan 2008, 22:33
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Filtrele respective se regasesc si pe instalatiile ptr masini pe carburator,si cam as avea dubii vis a vis de pret...Nu cred ca ar costa filtrele 300 ron,la o instalatie care face 750 ron cu tot cu montaj.Intreaba si la atelierele de montaj gpl cat costa filtrele respective.Cred ca pe la 1/3 din pretul cerut de service Dacia...Nu esti obligat sa iei piesele de la ei.


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adiya
post 21 Jan 2008, 22:50
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Am schimbat si eu filtru asta de gaz dar e drept pe un alt tip de instalatie (Mistral Autronic). Era ceva de genul 180 mii. In niciun caz 180 RON.

This post has been edited by adiya: 21 Jan 2008, 22:50


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Laurentziu83
post 21 Jan 2008, 23:00
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Aaaaaa, pai ti-au raspuns mecanicii in leii cu care sunt obisnuiti ei. radmasa.gif


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IRONICK
post 21 Jan 2008, 23:35
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QUOTE(Laurentziu83 @ 21 Jan 2008, 20:33)
Toate instalatiile GPL folosesc RS232 pentru comunicare
vrong!


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salexul
post 22 Jan 2008, 09:07
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Vreau si eu raspunsuri cu cat va consuma voua celor care aveti instalatii GPL.
Sa ziceti ce motor ce instalatie si consumurile urban, extraurban si mixt, masurate de voi!
Astept raspunsuri ca eu sunt cam nedumerit de ce consumul meu e asa de mare, 10% mers extraurban!
Tinand cont ca la benzina am 6-6,5% extraurban si socoteala nu iese, 1-2 litri peste benzina!

This post has been edited by salexul: 22 Jan 2008, 09:08


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SORITAXI
post 22 Jan 2008, 19:36
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Logan 1.4 Ambiance, instalatie GPL marca Romano, 67000 km din care 57000 pe gaz:
urban (Timisoara,aglomeratie, etc ) , iarna 12-12.5
extraurban: max. 8 ,mers normal, varfuri de 120 la ora
N-am facut nici o revizie la instalatia de gaz,habar n-am daca si unde are filtre, merge perfect.


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radu c
post 22 Jan 2008, 20:55
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logan 1.4 ambiance , instalatie gpl milano 71000 km parcursi pe gpl
consum urban 9-9,5l/100km ;extraurban 7-7,5l/100km
pret filtre : faza lichida 10 ron , faza gazoasa 50 ron , inlocuite o singura data la 60000 km .
probleme : colmatare filtru (dintr-un material poros ) in interiorul vaporizatorului rezolvare: anularea lui


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AR-18-MOS
post 22 Jan 2008, 21:07
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@salexul, pai spune si tu "cat de tare" ai mers de ti-a consumat atat? Ca daca ai mers constant cu 140 Km/h - 150 Km/h, incarcat ... e foarte normal consumul.

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salexul
post 22 Jan 2008, 23:42
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Am mers cu 90-100 km/h ! Eu fac naveta cu masina si merg asa ca sa scot un consum cat mai mic!
Si mi-a iesit acum 10% extraurban, f mult zic eu!


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Laurentziu83
post 22 Jan 2008, 23:59
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Am mai spus: instalatia ta e noua. E normal sa consume mai mult. Daca sunt calibrate corect, toate instalatiile vor consuma la fel. Si mie mi-a luat mult in prima faza, de fapt ia mult si acum, dar zilele astea imi fac interfata si sper sa o rezolv.
Eventual dute la 1000-1500 de km sa-ti calibreze instalatia ca la carte si verifica sa ai presiunea pe vaporizator 1 atm cu +-10%, asta e valoarea standard la orice instalatie, chiar daca mecanicii vor obiecta, (eventual isi mascheaza necunostinta prin cresterea presiunii)


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salexul
post 23 Jan 2008, 00:08
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Laurentiu, ce inseamna calibrare ca la carte?


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gavrilabizau
post 23 Jan 2008, 02:11
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buna
si eu sa dori sa imi montez GPL pe logan 1.4 MPI in Baia Mare
cina poate sa ma ajute?


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Laurentziu83
post 23 Jan 2008, 09:09
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Calibrarea ca la carte:
(am dat copy-paste din pdf-ul postat de mine mai sus)
QUOTE
3. Programming the Stag-200, Stag-300 controllers
There are two ways to program the Stag-200 and Stag-300 controllers:
 Programming with the gasoline and LPG maps. See 3.1 to 3.4
 Manual programming of the controller. See 0
Programming with the gasoline and LPG maps consists of the following stages:
 Auto-calibration of the Stag-200, Stag-300 controller
 Collection of the gasoline injection times with gasoline (gasoline map)
 Collection of the gasoline injection times with LPG (LPG map)
 Making sure both maps match and checking deviations

3.1. Auto-calibration
Prior to starting the auto-calibration, start the engine and wait until the lambda probe begins to work. During the auto-calibration the engine should work at idle run; do not increase rpm, switch off air-conditioning and lights and do not turn the steering wheel as this may cause errors during the auto-calibration. During the auto-calibration, watch carefully gasoline and LPG injection times. If LPG injection times are shorter than gasoline injection times, the injector nozzles may be too large and should be replaced with smaller diameter ones. When the auto-calibration is complete, 2 extreme yellow points and 4 additional points in between will show up on the multiplier map. The second left point is the point of engine operation at idle run i.e. the point of operation during auto-calibration. The multiplier’s value for this point should be between 1.1 and 1.6; if the value is greater than 1.6, longer times of gasoline injection i.e. greater load and high rpm, may cause overlapping of injection times i.e. one LPG injection will begin before the previous one ends (looped injections). In such a case, the controller will display the „Injection time too
long” error message. However, in such a case, check the operation of the lambda probe; if it is in the “rich” mode and the vehicle drives without problems, the error can be ignored.

3.2. Collection of the gasoline injection map with gasoline (gasoline map)
Having finished the auto-calibration, switch over to gasoline and drive the vehicle for app. 4 km to collect the gasoline map. During the collection of the map try to drive without changing gears e.g. at the 4th gear and in a way making the lambda probe to “work” i.e. changing its mode from weak to rich. Blue points should appear during the collection of the map. To collect the map quicker, adjust vehicle load in such a way causing new points to be collected in places which are still empty. Collection of maps is performed without participation of the diagnostic software, thus can be done with the PC disconnected.
However, collecting the map while the PC is connected and the diagnostic software running is quicker and enables the operator to see what is actually happening to the vehicle. When the controller collects sufficient number of points, the map will be drawn with a continuous line and the gasoline map collection is finished.

3.3. Collection of the gasoline injection map with LPG (LPG map)
Having collected the gasoline map, switch to LPG and collect the LPG map in the same
way the gasoline map was collected. The LPG map should be collected in the same road conditions and with similar loads as the gasoline map. The LPG map is drawn with green points. Having collected sufficient number of green points, the map will be drawn with a continuous green line. If the controller is set properly (the multiplier characteristics selected properly), the gasoline and the LPG maps should match. If the maps do not match, the multiplier characteristic should be corrected at the points where the maps do not match (the lower axis of co-ordinates for injection times). If the LPG map is collected with the PC connected and the diagnostic software running, it is possible to immediately correct the multiplier characteristics when the collected green points do not match with the gasoline map. It is even strongly recommended to use the PC in this way as if the multiplier characteristics differ strongly from the required ones, the controller starts to switch over and – in the extreme case – can activate the “check” signal lamp. When correcting the multiplier characteristics, make the points on the LPG map match with the gasoline map.
Once both maps match, the characteristics are properly set.
3.4. Checking if maps match, verification of deviations
Having collected the gasoline and LPG maps (both maps drawn with continuous lines)
check the deviation between them. In the Map window there is the “Deviation” button
located on the right. Press it to see the deviation graph drawn with a red line. If the
deviation fits within ± 10%, the controller is programmed properly; otherwise, the
multiplier characteristics should be corrected at points where maps do not match.

3.5. Controller manual setting
The controller may also be set up manually, which – provided sufficient experience has been gained – may prove quicker than the above described procedure.
Start with the auto-calibration in the same way as described above (this is necessary to ensure the controller works properly, see 3.1). If the auto-calibration finishes properly and the multiplier values are correct for the calibration point, switch the engine to gasoline and take it for a ride. The multiplier characteristics need to be set in the following way:
Drive the car with a constant load, i.e. the gasoline injection times should be stable. Adjust the engine loads so that the injection times equal e.g. app. 5 [ms]. The blue marker will help determine the injection times as it is location on the horizontal axis is determined by the injection times. Next, switch the car to LPG and watch the blue marker for variations in injection times when compared with the earlier gasoline injection times. If the injection times decreased (the marker moved to the left) it means that for the selected injection times the multiplier is too high (the mixture is too rich). In this case, lower the multiplier value for the 5 [ms] injection time (in our case). If upon switching to LPG the blue marker moves to the right, it means the mixture is not reach enough and the multiplier needs to be brought up for given injection times.
The procedure described above should be performed for a few different injection times, starting at the calibration point all the way until heavy load injections. You can check the multiplier map e.g. every 2 [ms] starting at the calibration point. If necessary, add a point at the multiplier map to set it more precisely.
Once the manual setting is complete, both maps – gasoline and LPG – should match.


Cam asta inseamna o calibrare a STAG-ului ca la carte, si nu prea se face in service-uri.

This post has been edited by Laurentziu83: 23 Jan 2008, 09:11


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salexul
post 23 Jan 2008, 13:34
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Am facut iar consumu', cu 41 de litri am mers 500 km din care vreo 50 km in oras si restu afara. Deci un consum de 8,2 %!


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alexys
post 23 Jan 2008, 14:44
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QUOTE(gavrilabizau @ 23 Jan 2008, 03:11)
buna
si eu sa dori sa imi montez GPL pe logan 1.4 MPI in Baia Mare
cina poate sa ma ajute?
*


Ai noroc ca exact in orasul tau exista cel mai bun atelier din zona ... Valentino TN, probabil suna a reclama, insa pot spune ca este si importator si in plus nu monteaza tampenii...


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gavrilabizau
post 23 Jan 2008, 23:54
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chiar miam facut programare la Valentino TN in Baia Mare si mau programat pe 4 februarie ziceau ca au programul incarcat si ca ma costa 2000 de RON

24 Jan 2008, 00:12:
sa imi ziceti si mie la ce sa fiu atent cand imi monteaza instalatia ca sa nu am probleme cu consumul ala mare pe care il zic uni ca il au dupa ce isi pun instalatia. Ziceti-mi niste intrebari pe care sa ile adresez la meseriasi si cam la ce raspunsuri sa ma astept pentru ami da seama de experienta lor .Astept ori ce fel de sugestii !!!

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Laurentziu83
post 24 Jan 2008, 09:45
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Pai sa-ti faca calibrarea aia de care zic eu mai sus, eventual fa-ti o traducere in romana la pasii aia si dute cu ea la service. Da-i 10-20 de lei mecanicului sa ti-o faca, si sa-ti aranjeze si ledurile de nivel la gaz. In mod normal, te duci la cea mai apropiata statie gpl si pui vreo 7-8-10 litri de gaz, ca sa aiba cum sa calibreze. Apoi, inainte de a calibra, spune-i sa-ti regleze in asa fel incat acela sa fie pragul la care se aprinde ledul rosu. Apoi repeti procedura cu cate 10 litri de gaz, pana faci plinul, si asa ai si indicatorul reglat.


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Fisicooo
post 24 Jan 2008, 17:01
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mda s-a lamurit si faza cu acele filtre de gaz care costa 3 milioane la reprezentantele Dacia. Azi am fost la 2 ateliere care monteaza instalatii de gpl si ambele mi-au spus aceeasi suma pentru cele 2 filtre si anume 80 lei noi mi-au spus ca se poate face rost de filtre dar e o mica mare problema nu au softul de la instalatia Landi Renzo.Au zis ca trebuie o recalibrare a instalatiei dupa inlocuirea filtrelor si acest soft original il au numai si numai reprezentantele Dacia acolo unde pretul e enorm deci e cam nasola treaba.


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DFA
post 25 Jan 2008, 16:46
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Costul reviziilor la Logan MPi GPL până la 90.000 Km îl găsiți aici

Și o comparație de consum/rentabilitate între motorizările Logan-ului atașată.

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Attached File  Comparatie_consum__motorizari_Logan.pdf ( 55.2k ) Number of downloads: 425


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Logan III Comfort ECO-G 100cp 2021 sedan - 27 Iul 2021
Logan III Comfort ECO-G 100, Bleu Iron, 16" Amaris, MediaNav, P. sc. încălz.+Climă, P. Comfort, P. Park. 2, volan piele, geam. el. sp.
ex Logan I 1.5
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Fisicooo
post 25 Jan 2008, 16:54
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super tare comparatia intre cele 4 versiuni de motorizare.Daca preturile de la reviziile Gpl sunt reale merita sa fac un drum la Buzau mai ales ca acolo am si rude.


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Laurentziu83
post 26 Jan 2008, 09:05
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AM REUSIT.

Adica m-am conectat la ECU gpl cu ajutorul schemei postate mai sus. Cu aceasta ocazie ii multumesc lui Bill pentru sprijinul acordat.
Interfata+acgassyyncro pot fi folosite la cei care au instalatie GPL cu electronica STAG 200, insa, daca cineva de aici face rost de softul pentru Landi Renzo, aceeasi interfata poate fi folosita, vor diferi doar ordinea K si L pe mufa de conectare. La mine au mers la pinii din mijloc.
Contrar parerilor, interfata a functionat si cu adaptor USB-serial fara probleme.
Cu aceasta ocazie am schimbat si cativa parametri (inainte motorul trebuia turat la 1600 de ture pentru trecerea benzina-gaz, acum trece la relanti, am ridicat cu 5 grade temperatura de trecere, sper ca acum dimineata sa nu mai faca nazuri din cauza temperaturii scazute, si am setat timpul de trecere la 7 secunde (mergea si un 3-4 secunde, dar nu conteaza). Am umblat si la ledurile de nivel, este foarte usor, in sensul ca, daca aveti un laptop, aveti rezervorul complet gol de gaz, daca va duceti la o statie de alimentare si alimentati de mai multe ori cu gaz (cu cati litri vreti sa se incadreze o diviziune), veti obtine un indicator foarte precis. N-am facut-o inca, doar am umblat un pic ca sa se stinga mai greu. biggrin.gif

Apoi am facut si o calibrare:
Am stins farurile, am inchis toti consumatorii din masina (inclusiv plafoniera, ca era intuneric aseara cand faceam experiente), din meniul Autocalibration am selectat START, si-a facut calibrarile si ce a stiut el, apoi am deconectat laptopul si am plecat, motorul ramasese pe benzina. Am mers in toate regimurile posibile, de la a 2-a pana la 80, in limitare, pana la 5-a cu 40 la ora, strivit pedala, mers constant, mers subturat, mers supraturat, etc, etc, toate in cativa km. Astfel am lasat ECU de gaz sa-si copieze toti parametrii de la benzina de care avea nevoie. Apoi am trecut-o pe gaz si am repetat fugareala, mersul incet, etc, etc, pentru a copia si parametrii de la gaz.
Toate astea sunt necesare pentru ecu ca sa stie cum se comporta motorul in toate regimurile de turatie, sarcina, etc, etc. Daca nu va sti la un anumit regim, probabil nu va functiona prea bine in acel regim.
Apoi ne-am intors acasa, am cuplat iar laptopul si ne-am uitat la harta de injectie. N-am inteles noi prea multe, in schimb deja se simtea o imbunatatire a mersului motorului, mergea exact ca pe benzina, nu mai era "legat" ca inainte.
Am gasit o eroare in log, si anume "LPG injectors full open! Check lambda sensors in full engine load", ramane de vazut ce e cu ea, momentan sunt multumit, daca si la consum se va vedea o scadere, atunci cred ca pot sa o ignor.
Cam asta au fost etapele conectarii si calibrarii. Mai urmeaza sa vad evolutia consumului si apoi sa-mi reglez ledurile de gaz.

This post has been edited by Laurentziu83: 26 Jan 2008, 09:22

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REDDOG_23
post 27 Jan 2008, 17:34
Post #869


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PTR.LAURENTIU : SUPER TARI INFORMATIILE PE CARE NI LE DAI !!! CHIAR INTERESANTA CHESTIA CU CALIBRAREA RESPECTIVA ! LA MINE EXISTA URMATOAREA SITUATIE : 9,5-10 L/100 URBAN SI 8-8,5 L/100 EXTRAURBAN AVAND IN VEDERE CA MERG MAI MULT IN ORAS SI CA AFARA VITEZA MAXIMA UNDEVA LA 110 KM/H ! biggrin.gif


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salexul
post 27 Jan 2008, 18:52
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Stie careva vreo statie GPL in BRAILA unde sa aibe GPL mai ieftin? Din cate am inteles numa la noi e 2 lei litrul de gaz! De ce oare e asa de scump?sad.gif((


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