The secret’s out. Agnes, the meddling neighbor played by Kathryn Hahn on “WandaVision,” Marvel’s first Disney+ show, is more than she appears. “WandaVision” stars Paul Bettany and Elizabeth Olsen as Vision and Wanda, two superheroes who have mysteriously taken up residence in a TV genre: the family sitcom. Each episode lovingly spoofs a different decade, riffing on “Bewitched” or “Malcolm in the Middle”; meanwhile, darkness seeps in from the outside world. In the seventh episode, Agnes reveals that her real name is Agatha Harkness, and that she’s a centuries-old witch whose magic manifests as a sparkling amethyst fog. (Her wisecracking, though, wasn’t an act: “I did not break your rules,” Agatha smirks. “They simply bent to my power.”)
The secret about Kathryn Hahn is also out, and has been for a while. Hahn, who got her start in fratty fare—“Step Brothers,” “Anchorman”—that showcased her comedic genius, has, for the past several years, been exploring more nuanced roles. After her turns in batch-craft series such as “Transparent,” “Mrs. Fletcher,” and “I Love Dick,” the critic Inkoo Kang declared her the “patron saint of sexed up middle-aged women.” Vulture concurred: “No longer can we ignore that Kathryn Hahn is, and has always been, one of our great screen presences.” Hahn’s superpower is a glowing kind of warmth; her funny, vulnerable characters always seem to be running a bit of a temperature. That heat—a by-product, the viewer imagines, of a restless inner life—radiates from Agatha, too, whose importance to “WandaVision,” in a sort of career reversal for Hahn, was at first semaphored precisely by the fact that Kathryn Hahn was playing her.
On a recent Zoom call, Hahn admitted that she gets “nervous, totally self-conscious” in interviews. “I always feel like it’s just a word salad coming out,” she said. Now forty-seven, the actor projects as friendly and thoughtful, especially about her work. But it’s true that, with her subtle, flexible face and tractor-beam charisma, she can be hyper-expressive even without communicating verbally—a quality that helps explain the simultaneous privacy and openness of her performances. We chatted about soporific sitcoms, the strangeness of pandemic celebrity, and taking the plunge into the Marvel universe. Our conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.
It’s such a joy to watch you in “WandaVision,” in part because your character, Agatha, seems to contain little bits and pieces of other roles you’ve played.
I didn’t consciously—it’s never conscious. But there was definitely a sense of total freedom with this part. I felt a real surrender in just taking the big swing of it, which was so, so fun. I mean, I’m kind of a newbie to this world. I don’t know very much about Marvel. But, when I was pitched this story, I was so taken by the ambition of it. And the serialism and the sadness and the all of it. So, yes—I mean, it really did feel like I was able to throw my whole self into it.
Was it almost like playing lots of parts at once? I was just thinking that Agatha’s layers almost correspond to different moments in your career, like an archeological site. There’s the brassy best-friend character, on top, and then, for a while, we think she’s a real woman trapped in this constraining role, almost like Mrs. Fletcher—
Oh, that’s so funny! I never connected it to my work previously, and I certainly never thought of my career leading to this particular show. It’s all been a real surprise.
As a viewer, it was so cathartic to have that reveal, that it was “Agatha all along,” in light of your previous work. As if you finally got to say, yes, you know, I’m actually the power source behind all your onscreen enchantment.
Oh, my God. I definitely felt catharsis when we were doing that. The theme song. I mean, that was so fun. We just laughed the whole time. And in my later forties, like, it’s so bananas to me. I certainly didn’t feel that power in myself when I was playing those best-friend parts. So, yeah, maybe.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But there’s the comic-book story of “Kathryn Hahn,” right? She made her name in big-budget comedy films, and then she was reborn as an indie darling. And then the mainstream tried to steal her back. Does that feel right to you as a narrative about your own career?
I think it has been one foot in front of the other. In my twenties, I kind of went where I was cast. I just didn’t have any real choice. I wanted to act. And I definitely felt divorced a little bit from the work that I was asked to be doing, and I felt like I was playing the part of it. This is very interesting because I did definitely feel like I was playing the part of an actor playing the part of the best friend.
You were Agatha all al—never mind.
And I came from the theatre, and I felt like I had much more autonomy when I was onstage. I had much more control over the arc of my performance. I also felt like I was kind of trying to fit into this box of what was, I thought, a camera performer. These tropes or whatever. It wasn’t really until my mid-thirties that I started to feel confident or feel a flame: the power of my individual self. I had started to see the beauty and the power of other individuals, I think. And then I was just drawn to creators who saw me and who wanted to work with my own individual—my own personhood, if that makes sense.
Yeah. I was thinking about the way we load up superheroes with all these ideals and expectations—you’ve talked about how, when you played Raquel, the rabbi on “Transparent,” it was important to you that she be more than a symbolic exemplar, a stand-in for religious authority. And so many of your characters, in “Afternoon Delight” or even “Bad Moms,” are real people in roles that other people invest with metaphorical importance. And they’re trying to be themselves.
Again, this wasn’t a conscious thing, but I was kind of always shifting toward whatever the most interesting light was. “Bad Moms” was just a great script. I hadn’t seen that kind of movie before. And, in the same way, I was turned on by, you know, the dark corners of a woman’s experience, the complexity. There are nooks and crannies that I’m so turned on by, and now there are writers and creators that are also interested. Young women are interested in looking at older women—they’re interested in what that is, because it’s so mysterious, and there used to be such an invisibility shield.
I wanted to ask you about that in the context of “WandaVision,” because one way that you’ve humanized your characters is by exploring them as sexual beings. But you can’t do that in a Marvel show.
I think I can! Agatha has a sex life—I definitely feel like it’s in there. She talks about her hubby, Ralph, and she says, “There’s no taming this tiger.”
O.K., but I guess you can’t address it as explicitly as you can in, like, “I Love Dick.”
Yes. But I would argue that we don’t need a cutaway to, like, Agatha in bed, in “WandaVision.” I don’t think that would add to the nuance or the forward motion.
No, of course! I guess I just meant that you’ve become a sort of avatar of messy, sensual female leads in their thirties and forties. And there’s this thing now where Hollywood likes to deepen characters by sexualizing them. With Agatha, you didn’t have that particular tool.
I mean, no matter what the gig is, I try to find the root underneath. With those scenes, I always knew what I was getting myself into in terms of that kind of work and that kind of vulnerability. And, you know, I always make sure that I walk onto those sets feeling very safe and protected and that my scene partners feel very safe and very protected. And I’ve worked with intimacy coördinators, which is a new thing, and I can’t imagine not working with them now. But, in all those cases, I felt that the sexual scenarios were very baked in. They were there to show something from a female point of view. They weren’t there to titillate, they weren’t objectifying. They were trying to get into the experience of a woman human.
Right. Your project in general seems to be exploring the personhood of characters who haven’t always been seen as themselves, as real people. A Marvel character, though, is not a real person! Agatha is an ancient magical being. So did you feel a tension there?
It was so fun! I mean, if I were to join this particular universe, I couldn’t have imagined a part that would have been more thrilling and more like an onion. So many layers. And, you know, I love my job so madly. To be able to swing from Eve Fletcher to something like this is why I got into this mess in the first place. I’m still pinching myself that I’m not pigeonholed. I think back to school and when I was playing Molière one day and then, like, Polonius. It’s just been a dream chapter that this kind of stuff can happen.
And I was blown away by the artists who worked on this show. These art directors and stunt people and designers who had been blowing up buildings or, you know, working on big set pieces for the “Avengers” movies—they were the same ones moving plates around and adjusting wires for the “Dick Van Dyke” episode. It became an inside joke, because my jaw would be on the floor the whole time. I was so used to no makeup, barely any crew. It was a real thrill.
Can you say more about the vibe on set? Did it feel like this huge Marvel Studios production?
It felt like a circus, yeah. But it was also—and this is a credit to Matt Shakman, our director, who comes from the theatre—we were able to create a theatre-company feeling from the beginning. We started with that sixties episode, which was in front of a live audience, like a play. It was very tiny and very intimate. And, even as the episodes got bigger, he [Shakman] still insulated us as actors, as if we were in this tiny little repertoire. You never felt disconnected from telling the story.
What was your previous relationship to comic books and Marvel specifically?
I had barely any, to be totally honest. My kids are really Marvel fans. I watched all of it, all of the movies. And I have mad respect for the comics. They’re beautiful. And I love graphic novels, which I know is a totally different thing, but I do. When I dug into Wanda’s story, which is very dark and complicated, that was really interesting, a whole new world.
Was it scary to join something that people have such intense feelings about?
I don’t have social media. I know that there is a profound fan base for these movies, this material, which is so, so thrilling. And I—we—don’t want to let them down. But I have no real sense. Just my kids are suspiciously nice to me all of a sudden.
Is it gratifying for you, as a professional—an actor who pours so much thought and talent into the smallest facial expressions or line readings—to have audiences overanalyzing every detail of your performance? Like, the way you say “Charmed!” or the brooch you wear or a hand gesture you make.
Oh, yes. I had a ball. And learning about the little details myself! I didn’t know some of the Easter eggs that were coming toward me from the costumers, or from the director or writer. People would just whisper to me what things meant right before the scene started, and I’d be, like, “That’s genius!”
Do you feel like you had a lot of ownership over how Agatha turned out? How collaborative was the set?
I was really surprised, because I assumed that I would be a kind of paper doll being moved around the M.C.U. But it was the opposite. Once I was walked through Agatha’s journey and what specific story we were trying to tell with her, it felt very, very open. And, of course, working with Lizzie—she’s phenomenal.
What was an example of something that you added to the character?
There were a few of her laughs that surprised everyone, including me!
Children sometimes imprint on fictional universes, like Marvel or Harry Potter, and project themselves inside or make up stories about the characters. Those worlds can take up so much imaginative real estate. Was there a piece of culture that you did that with as a kid?
“Little House on the Prairie.” I wanted to circle the wagons with Pa and a little dog, and I wanted to live on a prairie. I would always pretend that I was drying laundry on a line.
O.K., I have a short Marvel lightning round.
I’m not going to know anything!
There are no wrong answers! Who’s the best Avenger?
Scarlet Witch. Awesome.
Who’s the lamest Avenger?
Come on.
Who’s the hottest Avenger?
Scarlet Witch. Obviously. But also Black Widow.
Are there actors that you’d like to see join the M.C.U.?
Tilda Swinton is already in. Cate Blanchett? Oh, wait, she’s there too. Phoebe Waller-Bridge—put that human anywhere. There are so many!
What about Al Pacino? There’s speculation that he might show up at the end of “WandaVision.”
Interesting.
That’s the end of the lightning round. Can you talk about your relationship to the sitcom genre? Did you watch any of the shows that “WandaVision” riffs on?
I grew up as a kid in the eighties. Those shows were part of my childhood. I remember the softness of the canned laughter. And I remember watching the retro sitcoms, like “Leave It to Beaver” or “Happy Days.” They’d just be on, in the back room. We had three channels. I remember coming home from school and making a snack, and I’d watch them and not really laugh out loud or anything, but they were comforting.
What made them comforting?
The way they flowed over me. And it was also just what we did after school. Before homework.
“WandaVision” is a love letter to and critique of television forms, but it’s also, as many people have pointed out, a show about grief. There’s a lot about our lives right now that feels saturated in grief. Do you think the pandemic has shaped the response to the show?
I do. I really do. We filmed before quarantine started, but, certainly, during this time of isolation, TV has become like the family fireplace. It’s where we gather. We try not to do it all the time, but, I think, it really has been important.
I was thinking about one moment, where Wanda expands the Hex, her false TV reality, and it’s an ominous wall of red and gray pressing into the sky. It reminded me of the California wildfires.
Yeah. We live in Los Angeles, so that was pretty intense. There were days where you could look directly at the sun. Everything was orange.
You also played a grief counsellor on “Crossing Jordan,” right?
She was an intake person who turned into a grief counsellor in the course of maybe two episodes. Yeah. I mean, I think the role that is the most connected to now, for me, is when I was working on “Transparent.” I was working with a rabbi, Susan Goldberg—a deep dive—and I learned a ton from her that I still hold very dearly. Wait, aww, is that your puppy?
[Barking] Sh-h-h! Otto! I’m so sorry. My boyfriend is supposed to be watching him.
Congratulations! Puppy! We have two kittens, and then my daughter has also been fostering. So our guest room is just, like, urine town. But it’s very good. They all get adopted so quickly, thank goodness. It’s been really cute and very sweet for her. She’s eleven.
That’s great! Sh-h-h. Christ.
So, one thing that people sometimes say about COVID is that our masks have dropped. To the extent that we are often playing roles in our personal lives, pretending to be happier or more together than we are, that’s really changed, and there’s a new freedom to be frank and honest about what’s going on. Do you find that’s been true for you?
No, I really agree. I mean, not in the literal sense—we’ve been very strict in this family about masks. But the metaphor of closing, of shutting everything down but essential businesses. That’s been true of our family. There’s this feeling of limiting our lives to the essentials. And there’s also something about six feet apart and having to stand in your own space. I’m a big hugger, so it feels very vulnerable, but there’s also something very, very powerful about it.
“WandaVision” has received tons of attention. I imagine that, under normal circumstances, you’d be surrounded by cameras and fans whenever you stepped outside. Is it alienating to star in a hit show during a pandemic?
Oh, yeah, I feel completely insulated. I’m just with my kids and these kittens, and we get to watch the show as a family every Friday. It’s so fun to finally be able to watch something I worked on with my kids. And, let’s see, I take walks with my friends. I’m working on another gig. So I definitely feel like, in normal times, it would be madness, madness, but having this strange, private experience is something I’ll hold dearly in my heart. Because “WandaVision” was there over such a profoundly emotional chapter. A life-altering, miserable chapter for so many of us. And I’m just so proud of it.
Can we talk about a particular quality of Kathryn Hahn fandom? It’s just, every year, someone declares another Hahnaissance, and we pledge our undying love, and it’s a whole thing where people act like they’ve personally discovered you. Like, if I were filling out an online dating profile, and I wanted to seem cool, I’d say “Kathryn Hahn for life” or something. You’re not just a beloved actor—you’re a signifier.
That is so, so sweet! I did see the Hahnaissance thing, and it was a very blushable, very blessed little moment for me. Um.
It’s so deserved! But it’s also, like, the general consensus is to put Kathryn Hahn’s face on the dollar bill, so why do you think this “secret weapon” narrative persists?
I literally have no—well, it’s such a privilege to be an actor. And I guess in the beginning, I just wanted to do what I could to be an actor. I’ve been so grateful to flip around so many different worlds. It’s been beautifully chaotic. But I guess I was under the radar for a million years, doing what I love.
Have you revisited any films or shows lately as comfort watches?
My imagination tends to run dark, so I love a true crime or anything like that. I went back to “Broadchurch.” “The Crown,” too—I watched that from the beginning. A lot of my comfort shows are from the U.K., for some reason.
That seems . . . valid.
Well, I think there’s something cozy and nice about mud on the boots and tea and horses. And, you know, a hearth. But, more recently, “I May Destroy You” and “Unorthodox” just blew my mind, for totally separate reasons. Also, “Borat 2.” Maria Bakalova’s fearlessness caught me on fire.
Do you have other lockdown coping mechanisms?
Besides that edible gummy? [Laughs] I try to be healthy—yoga, meditation, walks, podcasts, all that stuff. And I get together with friends, mostly women but a few guys, on Saturdays for Stretch Church.
Stretch Church?
We stretch! On Zoom!
Now that you’re stuck at home, are you haunted by any weird regrets or botched auditions from the past?
I don’t know that those regrets only surfaced during the pandemic! They’re always following me, woman. But, if I wanted to go there, I could say, “I wasted plenty of time because I didn’t believe in myself enough, or put my whole self forward, or because I tried to step into a perception that didn’t serve me.” There were a couple of times where I got to be in the room with certain directors, like the Coen brothers, and it would have been a dream come true, and I was way too sweaty, I wanted it too badly. Or there were other times where it was a big audition, but I was really green.
But, you know, I think I can also frame it as “I learned from those moments and ended up where I am.” I still feel close to the version of myself who worked as a receptionist in a hair salon in New York, right after college. It took so long to come to terms with the idea that I could make a living as an actor. I thought I’d need to have some other job and be acting for free, and I was very willing to do that. You know how people ask what you’d be doing in a different universe, if you didn’t have your job? I’m, like, I would still be acting, because I’d just be pretending to do that job.
