My friend has brand new (bought it few days ago, just 200km so far) Logan 1.4 MPI and following "problem" (or maybe it is a problem): - when engine is cold it starts OK, without any problem, out of first try - when engine is warm (when you drive and turn off engine for few minutes) and want to start it again - it may happen that Logan will not start engine from first attempt but from a second or even third try. Is this normal, and will dissapear - or something that should be worried about?

TAKE IT BACK TO THE GARAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Stu

1. Does it always do that? (cold start ok, warm start problematic).
If the answer is yes then get to the service and have it checked.
Wait for all the tests to complete (the red blinking light in the dash should stop blinking and go out completely) and then turn the ignition key.


2. Is it hot outside? Because it happens that when the car sits in the sun for a few hours and the fuel tank is almost empty (1-2 "pads" or "lines" remaining) that the engine won't start on first attempt! The solution is to have the tank at least half full ( or at most half empty ). Don't know why this happens...

Mystery seems to be solved: it seems that he wasn't turning the key to the maximum :-) He stopped turning the key clockwise as soon as he heard starter - but it seems it needed one more milimeter (or few more degrees angle to be precise) in order to start the engine. As I said, brand new car, he use to drive other car before...

Logan II will have magnetic card for starting the engine,
therefore situations like this will no more occur

Yeah..., right....

No, no…slot would be left from the steering wheel…

It seems that problem has NOT being solved!

It still behaves like that. Also sometimes (not always!) when machine is cold (not being driven for two days for example).

Friend thinks that it may be that he is not pressing the clutch pedal to the max (because of that rubber floor pad) when starting the engine, and he now took that out, and will try how it behaves in next few days...

You don't have to press anything... The engine has an electronic injection! Maybe your problem is caused by you, releasing the key too fast from the ignition point!

He tried several times with pressing clutch to the max (or without it) - and yes, I can confirm that problem is NOT related with that


He is keeping the key to the max for at least 3 seconds - but it seems that engine simply doesn't wan't to start
(starter seems to be doing his job just fine - but like ingition is missing... ?)

When the wheather is hot, it is not a problem to have a bad start! Sometimes it happens! I have this 'problem' with my Punto because I start it often! Now, i don't wait for the injection light to stop, i just turn the key and wait 1-3 seconds for the engine to start!

I say you should consult a car 'doctor', the service! Long live those guys !

Weather temperature is approx 15C - so it is not hot. And engine was driven for approx 10 minutes and then turned off for 2 hours. After that no way to start it. (all cables : battery, spak plugs etc. - visually checked, brand new, look quite OK).

He will try in the morning when engine is completely cool.

Otherwise he will drive it to the service (if he manage to start it ) but since of 1. May holidays around here... only God knows when he would get his car back...

Since it happened few times when engine was left to be cooled overnight - is it possible that problem is caused by ECM (engine coolant sensor?) I've did a big of Googleing, and on some sites they suggest that ECM should be checked IF car has some problems to start when warm. But, if has that problem when cold as well... Hmmmm... If yes - could someone explain (drawing/photo more than welcome!) where are contacts/terminals of that ECM unit - just to check if they are loose or something similar....

Also, my friend keeps his gas tank almost full (2-3 lines below the maximum), and considering the posts about "erratic" mood of engine when gas tank is full (could this be considered as full??) - I just wander if this could be the case??

Needless to say - once when started engine works without any problem...

It is very likely to have a problem on the ignition circuit or with the relays (the relays in engine compartment).
He should go to service for that.

In case of problem with ignition circuit and/or relays - wouldn't then be also same problems during drive? (as this happens only during engine start-up, once when you start the engine it runs smoothly....).

Are those relays visible / accessible easily? Where are they located (to check if they are seated properly, just in case).

Today my friend and I did some tests and it seems that this morning it didn't wan't to start out of first try, but from the second. Then, every next try (third, fourth...) it started the engine promptly, without any problem.

We measured the voltage on the battery: 12.6V when machine is off, approx 12.4 when machine about to start (starter starts working) and above 14V when engine is ON (alternator is charging the battery for sure).

No loose contacts with battery or spark plugs or that little box where all cables from sparkplugs are connected (electric distributor?).

Car was parked over night in his backyard, on the grass, and it was some rain over the night... could that be the cause of engine not starting out the first try?

[quote=zorpetus,28 Apr 2006, 16:05]
I THINK THAT YOU ARE JOKING AROUND WITH US
THIS IS A NEW CAR AND BELONGS BACK IN THE GARAGE NOT BEING MESSED AROUND WITH BY HOBBY MECHANICS
STU

No, I am not joking with you.

Yes, car is brand new and under warranty, and there is no problem to take it to service but:

- is it really something that is unusual and needs service ? (is my friend only Logan owner who is experiencing this - or this is something, altough not normal - more or less "frequent" and "nothing to worry about").

- His/our intention is not to fix it - but to be able to diagnose the problem as much as possible in order to explain what the problem is (and what the problem is not!) in the service.

- Why? Because it is one of those problems that occur from time to time, not always, and it may happen it wouldn't repeat when demonstrated in service (talking about Murphy law...)


So, having said all that - you understand that we are not wasting neither our neither your time - just trying to get some help from experienced Logan owners.

Yes, is unusual and needs service.
Is a problem either on electric circuit (wires, relays, sparks, high voltage coil, spark plug leads) either on Throttle valve and its resistors (“throttle valve conector” or "throttle position sensor connector”)

Friend already called the service, and they told him that they are surprised with that kind of problem (like nobody complained about that so far...) - but on the other hand, that could be only that they are pretending to be surprised.

Some people also suggested that it could be problem with coded key - as in that case everything would appear like what I have described - all lights OK, stater works - but engine can not be started.


Thank you all for helping my friend!!!


I have just one more question: when you start your Logan in the morning: put it on "contact" and then when that yellow light for pump is turned off - do you hear a silent "click" somewhere under the front board? (like some kind of relay...?). Then you start your engine, let it go for few seconds and turn it off - and then try to turn it on again - but that "click" is missing - altough you start the engine without any problem?

Regarding coded key, if the led on dashboard is turning off after 3 second, the engine immobiliser systems is working well.
If there are starting problems, generally are from position sensor on flywheel, or electrical from relays.
If the car has some years (which is not the case), it is more likely to be from throttle valve

It is not very clear what are the causes for these kind of problems posted here (starting problems with warm engine), and the problem is quite unusual.
Also a little unusual is a starting problem with cold engine, but not with warm engine.
This two type of problems are pretty rare.
And because it happens at certain temperature, I think is more an electric problem, especially with the relays or connectors. The injectors relay is most likely.
But a check on throttle valve and its connectors should be done also.
And a check on high voltage coil and its connectors.

First of all thank you very much for helping my friend and myself to find cause of the problem he has with starting the engine of his Logan.

I hope that my questions and answers to them would be useful for other members/visitors of this forum.

Today, as per information received from you we checked LED for coded key when engine didn’t want to start – and it was not blinking at all. So, therefore, it seems that problem is not coded-key related.

When we tried to start the car we noticed that Car-battery indicator (red LED shaped as car battery on dashboard) was also lighting, although not in full power (but visible).
Few days ago we (among many other things) suspected the battery, and checked voltage – it was 12.6 when engine is off, 12.4 when about to start the engine (engine starts working), and above 14V as soon as engine was started.

You also mentioned that problem could be when alarm is not properly installed – please be kind (and have some more patience  ) and tell us if you referring to case when alarm is configured to “cut” the ignition of the car (“ignition blocking”) or you were referring to some “typical” mistake people who are installing alarms make when installing alarm in Logan?

In this case alarm is installed to have siren and “panic alarm” (all 4 direction indicators blinking) in case when someone attempts to open the car – and to have “remote” central lock (as here Logan Ambiance comes with a central lock – but it is de/activated manually, by key in drivers door – not via remote control – that comes in Ambiance Pack – and this Logan is just Ambiance).

Today my friend visited the Dacia service, and they put it on the diagnostic computer, and it readed error: DF044

Person in service told him that this is error related with circuit for blocking engine to start (ignition blocking) and that because of this error he is unable to access the module for ignition inside computer (or something like that).

My friend was adviced to the service who installed alarm (again, person who installed alarm didn't "cut" any ignition blockade circuits, there is nothing with alarm turned ON that would prevent anyone with right coded key to start the car) to check if he did everything OK.

Any advice? Is this DF044 error pointing to something specific? Any experience from practice?

(Alarm is Cobra, and Logan is 1.4 MPI)

TRY This site I think it will maybe help you
http://fets3.freetranslation.com/?sequence...erman%2FEnglish
stu

Okay, so we have a car that sometimes starts, but sometimes does not. It seems that there is no problem with starting cold, but with starting warm or when the car sat for a while after being driven. There is also some doubt about an aftermarket alarm system.

Questions:

1 Does the alarm cut off the ignition? Does the alarm cut off fuel pump? Does the car have a fuel pump reset switch? Check all these.

2 When attempting to start (and fail) do you know for sure that the engine is turning? (rev counter dead or pointing something?). Make sure the engine actually cranks, otherwise there may be a problem with the starter one-way bearing. This makes the starter run, but if the bearing slips, the engine does not actually turn. A few attempts might be needed to get a "grip point" on the bearing.

Hopefully this helps. If not, we'll take it to the next step.

cheers

HOW ABOUT DISABLING THE ALARM ?

At first, this problem appeared to be temperature related - but then, after few more days passed it appered that engine temperature has nothing to do with it, as problem appeared also when engine was cold.

And it happens occasionally - so, my guess is that it has something to do with
some bad contact somewhere (or some contact of wires where there shouldn't be
any contact etc.) - _most probably_ caused accidentally by the person who installed the alarm.



Yes, an "Cobra" brand alarm has been installed by non-Dacia service.
That service claims to be experienced, claims that they have experience with Renault type electronics, that they have used relays, diodes, additional fuses etc. - in another words that they have installed the alarm in proffesional manner.

But, there is always a possibility that they did something in a wrong way.

For example they connected the alarm to "panic light" (all 4 dirrection indicators), while I saw in another post that all recommend alarm to be connected to parking ("position"?) lights... Etc.





No alarm does not cut off ignition, neither fuel pump - it was avoided in order not to void the warranty etc.
And that is exactly what makes this problem quite a interesting one.

Don't know about this fuel pump reset switch - where this should be located?




Yes, 100% sure.

Everything appears as 100% normal - but like "only" ignition is missing (like there is no spark from a spark plug) OR like injectors are blocked and there is no fuel in the cylinders. Coded key is recognised (red LED light on the dashboard goes off, as well as all other lights incl. that "check engine" indicator).

Thinking of that as well - but trying to get as much as possible information - maybe instead of disabling the alarm my friend can ask the person who installed the alarm if he connected it like it should be connected (based on some practical advice from this forum) and if not -> to correct it instead of disabling the alarm.

is the fuel pump OK?? feel it it will vibrate on turning on the ignition
OR HOLD ONE SPARKPLUG LEAD TO EARTH AND GET SOMEONE TO TURN MOTOR
YOU SHOULD GET A BLUE SPARK :::::::::::TAKE PLUG OUT ::LEAVE CABLE ON IT:: AND HOLD PLUG BODY TO A METAL PART OF MOTOR :::NOT ALUMINIUM
STU

This post has been edited by martin245: 7 May 2006, 07:59

Yes, both fuel pump and spark plugs are OK - there is a spark against metal parts of the engine.