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> O parere de american..., ce ziceti?

vv
post 21 Dec 2005, 17:24
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QUOTE(scott adams)
As I’ve said here before, the main reason I don’t vote is that I’m certain I don’t have enough information to make informed decisions. I suppose that if one of the two candidates for President was fond of swastikas, I might get involved. (I’d vote for the other candidate, you stupid lemon-eater.) But on most questions, the media refuses to tell me what I need to know. Let me give you an example.

There’s a lot of talk about whether The United States should torture terrorists. Those opposed to torture say it doesn’t work. That includes people who should know, like John McCain.

Now, if torture doesn’t work, and it makes the rest of the world hate the United States, that seems like a no-brainer. But I can’t help thinking there are three bits of information I need to know before making up my mind.

First, why is torture so widely used if it doesn’t work? I mean, seriously, a lot of professional torturers are putting a lot of effort into it. Has the CIA really never looked into it? Is it like astrology, where people believe it without the benefit of any science?

Second, is torture ineffective for EVERY type of question, or just the kind where you can’t tell if the guy is lying? I can see how it wouldn’t work for questions like, “What is Osama thinking now?” It’s too easy to lie. But is it also ineffective when you say, “I’m going to keep torturing you until we find the guy that you say has the nuclear suitcase bomb. We’ll stop as soon as we find him. No rush.”

Third, apparently we are successfully getting information from captured terror suspects. Are they giving us this stuff because we played annoying music near them and made them stand up for a long time? Has doing a “little extra” ever speeded things up?

Perhaps you know the answer to those questions. I’m sure you will tell me.


Ceea ce ma face sa ma intreb: de ce sunt impotriva torturii? Intuitiv, realizez ca e gresit. Da, faptul ca risti sa torturezi un nevinovat e un argument - da' parca nu e singurul. Am senzatia ca intr-adevar e o chestie gresita cu aplicarea torturii la scara larga, si nu tine doar de "victimele colaterale" ci iti afecteaza in mod negativ chiar scopul tau initial (adica mai pe romaneste - iti reduce cantitatea de informatii obtinute). Probabil o posibila explicatie ar fi "teroristii afla ca practici tortura, se pregatesc pentru asta (oferind mai putine informatii 'pionilor', pregatindu-i psihic pe adepti); asta pe de o parte iti reduce tie eficienta - pe de alta parte ii radicalizeaza pe ei si le castiga noi adepti". E o parte a unui principiu mai larg in care eu cred, ca nu poti corecta o greseala cu o greseala si mai mare - de ex. nu poti baga la zdup un mafiot inscenandu-i ceva, fiindca pana la urma totul se intoarce cumva impotriva ta.

Alte pareri? Sunt curios smile.gif


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Codrin
post 21 Dec 2005, 18:22
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''Nu votez'' in loc de ''n-am votat''. Chiar atat de slaba sa fie media americana sa nu ofere destule informatii? Ma indoiesc.

Pionii oricum primesc minimul de informatii, sunt mai eficienti daca stiu ca-i asteapta tortura in caz de captura. Oare putem compara torturarea unui terorist cu a unui hot? E o greseala la nivel teoretic, insa practic alternative sunt prea putine si timpul scurt. Sa fi descoperit o agentie de informatii 11 Septembrie prin tortura, s-ar fi opus cineva uitandu-se in urma? Greseala ramane, dar rezultatele de moment ar putea fi prea bune pentru a lua in considerare efectele pe termen lung.


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mil
post 21 Dec 2005, 21:47
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drepturile omului nu sunt o umbrela pe care o deschizi doar cand te aranjeaza...ele garanteaza pana la momentul condamnarii definitive drepturi egale tuturor... chit ca esti acuzat de terorism, trecut strada pe rosu, omorat o gaina cu masina, viol, crima...un anchetat nu poate suferi un tratament rau decat in conditiile legii...daca in lege scrie nu tortura...atunci cine o face e un criminal si trebuie la randul lui anchetat si condamnat.


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kukuruz
post 21 Dec 2005, 22:58
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Tortura include nu numai administrarea durerii fizice, trupesti ci si tehnicile de brainwashing - forma de tortura psihologica in care dezorientarea mintala este indusa prin diverse metode (sa-l fortezi sa stea treaz indefinit, picatura chinezeasca, s.a.). Daca s-ar scoate asta, atunci stau si ma intreb cum si-ar mai face treaba anchetatorii?

Se practica de cand lumea. In Grecia antica (erau torturati sclavii, dar si cetatenii liberi), in Imperiul Roman (aia vinovati de crima de "laesa majestas" - sau crima impotriva puterii suverane - expresia a ramas!), in Evul Mediu Biserica Crestina a instituit Inchizitia autorizata de Papa sa tortureze ereticii. E drept ca ororile Inchizitiei si folosirea excesiva a "torturii judiciare" in sec. 14 si 16 au dus pana la urma la abolirea torturii in toate tarile din Europa pe la mijlocul sec. 18. Dar, 200 de ani mai tarziu, ea a revenit pe tapet odata cu aparitia regimurilor national-socialiste, fasciste si comuniste... ca arma de coercitie politica!

ONU, fireste, a decretat tortura ilegala. Daca esti tara semnatara a conventiei respective, daca nu... scopul scuza mijloacele... Okay, exista, teoretic, posibilitatea ca judecatorul sa nu admita marturii obtinute prin torturarea suspectului, dar cine mai recurge la metode inchizitoriale.

La noi, suspectii cu staif scapa de regula imediat dupa arestare pe motiv ca nu sporta regimul de detentie...

P.S. Si, ca sa revenim "on-topic" smile.gif, merita de citit aceasta stire de la BBC:

Americans tortured me - Saddam
QUOTE
Saddam Hussein has been beaten and tortured by the Americans, he has alleged at his trial in Baghdad.
"I have been beaten on every place of my body, and the signs are all over my body," he told the court.
A White House spokesman rejected the charge, saying it was one of the most "preposterous" things Saddam Hussein had said recently.
[...]


This post has been edited by kukuruz: 21 Dec 2005, 23:21


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